Thursday, 8 Conclusion
This seems to be becoming a trend:
Kully-Fornia priest tells Obama supporters to confess
Modesto, CA (AP) -- A Roman Catholic priest has told parishioners they should confess if they voted for Barack Obama because the president-elect supports abortion. The Rev. Joseph Illo says his parishioners at St. Joseph's Catholic Church in Modesto shouldn't risk losing their "state of grace" by receiving communion sacrilegiously. He delivered the message in a Nov. 21 letter and during mass. In an interview this week with the Modesto Bee, Illo says he sent the letter because Catholic teaching requires that people go to confession when they commit a mortal sin. |
Hmmmmm - another letter from a Catholic priest, telling their religious followers that it was a sin to vote for the black guy because of the Catholic interpretation of Obama's voting record when he was a state senator in Illinois*. Funny how the serial adulterer who flip flopped on abortion (voting both for and against it during his time in the federal senate), stole from the american people, got his drug stealing beer baroness trophy wife an international diplomatic passport to help her steal drugs across international borders, and ruined those who were honest enough to say something about the illegal shenanigans going on, is considered to be the more moral candidate to vote for by the Catholic church in its' official capacity.
Considering the catholic church's official stand on boy-buggering (excommunicate those among the congregation who report it, 'forget' to inform the authorities when they catch a priest buggering boys, and then elect the cardinal who's been enabling priests to bugger boys as the next frelling pope), and the ongoing ravings of Bill Donahue (who is being paid $350K a year by the catholics to spew hate speech, call for pogroms, and generally oppress those who do not share his religiously insane beliefs), I would charitably consider the catholic church to be somewhat morally bereft when it releases position papers on the morality of others involved in voting for one politician over another.
This brings to mind a quote from Ian Fleming's Goldfinger:
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time is enemy action.
How many more of these letters need to be written by how many more catholic priests before the rest of the catholics will admit that this is an official church policy that is being officially requested to be officially published by the officials of the catholic church?
* - < sarcasm > and it's not because they think he's a socialist muslim liberal non-white guy, and the catholics are abusing their religious beliefs to slur the next president! They would never use the official church bureaucracy to do that! < / sarcasm >
Tom,
I have another cheek if you need to get any more of that off your chest.
I'm sorry.
Really.
By the way, I've been posted to the NAVY, out in beautiful Victoria, BC.
Paul
Dude! Glad to hear you're doing okay! Is Marj and the rest of the clan out there with you, or are you out to sea all the time?
I wish you were sorry about the official position of your church, and that they are preaching hatred towards their fellow man. Because, apparently, that's what these priests seem to be doing - they have been officially supported by their dioceses while making these statements.
And - don't be sorry for me. This is no skin off my nose. Be sorry for the millions of catholics who have been told that they have committed a mortal sin because of the way they voted. Be sorry for a church that feels it has the right to act in this manner. And especially be sorry for the blasphemous abominations that are abusing their positions within the catholic church and preaching this bile in their Invisible Sky Fairy's name.
Many people might be of the view that the notion of partial-birth abortion on demand is actually a moral abomination masquerading as a "liberal" freedom of choice.
Interesting to note that what "gives the pre-modern fascist killers a pass" is the post-modern rhetoric and dogma of the left. It is precisely this inherently psychologically dysfunctional cognitive strategy that is able to shift, "without a blink" from one subjective conviction to its exact opposite without a shred of self-awareness or mental dissonance. Minds under the postmodern spell are simply not capable of appreciating the irrationality; nor are they capable of even appreciating the irony of their contradictory discourses. There is a common pattern in the lefts childish rantings: a subjectivism and relativism that comes across in one breath; alternating with a dogmatic absolutism in the next. In other words, it is a waste of time to look for sense or logic in their incessant adolescent demands.
Many religiously insane people seem to be unaware of the view that the notion of abortion on demand is actually none of their business, and their attempts to control women's bodies through their religious insanity is a blasphemous abomination masquerading as a 'pro life' philosophy.
Interesting to note that what gives the religiously insane theofascist control freaks a pass is the propaganda, rhetoric, and dogma of the Reich Wing conservatives. It is precisely this inherently psychologically dysfunctional cognitive strategy that is able to shift, without a blink from one subjective conviction to its exact opposite without a shred of self-awareness or mental dissonance. Minds operating under the tenets of religiousl insanity are simply not capable of appreciating the irrationality; nor are they capable of even appreciating the irony of their contradictory discourses. There is a common pattern in the Reich Wing's childish rantings: a subjectivism and relativism that comes across in one breath; alternating with a dogmatic absolutism in the next. In other words, it is a waste of time to look for sense or logic in their incessant adolescent demands.
Tom the murderer would have fit right in with the Nazis.
Whoever the religiously insane idiot is who has been polluting my comments with his theofasctic screeds would have fit right in with the Spanish Inquisition, the Stasi, and the Putsch sadministration and their immoral torturers. Funny how I'm a murderer because I believe that grown women should be allowed to make their own choices (not that I've actually done anything, mind you - I'm being labeled a murderer just because I support the pro-choice position), yet this immoral scold thinks he's better than me because he enables priests to sodomize young children with his church tithes, and elects Republican't corporate welfare queens who send young men to their deaths half way around the country to fight for his crusades.
Nice try (well - not really...), ditto monkey. You can get mommy to help you with the big words when she brings some more cheetos down to your man cave in her basement.
Wolverines!
Tom's obtuse knee-jerk leftard diatribes stretch a mile wide in excrement, and hardly an inch deep in true substance.
I'll bet he is a fascist teacher who physically, mentally, and sexually abuse children--like you see in the news almost every week.
The religiously insane idiot who keeps on posting here and his knee jerk Reich Wing ad hominem attacks illustrate perfectly the sanctimonious hypocrisy of conservative philosophy and the emptiness of their morals and ethical codes.
He clearly projects his shame and guilt over enabling christian priests to molest children - like the ones you see in the news almost every week - upon teachers. Possibly due to a trauma suffered while he was a spoolboy. And he would lose what little discretionary income he had left after tithing to his church if he placed his bet.
Would you care to try and put your foot in your mouth once more? I will be more than happy to taunt you a further time...
Reich wing?! Hitler's National Socialist German Workers' Party was really, surprise, a rightwing party. LMAO!
The leftards continue to self-implode, courtesy of the failed education system they’ve been allowed to create in this country. They can’t use logic and reasoning, because they were never taught how to think. When confronted with facts (such as the constant physical, mental, and sexual abuse teachers have committed on our children) and logic (break a law, suffer the consequences), they devolve to filth, threats, and racism. It’s pitiful to watch grown people act like such children.
Reich wing?! Hitler's National Socialist German Workers' Party was really, surprise, a rightwing party. LMAO!
Yeah - and it never engaged in propaganda ops designed to make its' right wing behavior appear to be anything but!
You forgot to mention that Michael Moore is fat, Teddy Kennedy's a drunk, and Senator Boyd was once a Klansman! Hannity must be slacking off on the reich wing training these days...
The leftards continue to self-implode, courtesy of the failed education system they’ve been allowed to create in this country.
Yes - there's an awful self implosion going on with liberals today - that's why they won with an overwhelming mandate in November.
The lack of logic involved in blaming the edumacation system, much less the projection involved in the mistaken belief that the education system as it stands today is a creation of any group with any sort of idealogical bent (not withstanding the religiously insane's attempts to turn it into a christian edumacation system, which this troglodyte has somehow mysteriously avoided noticing), points to an abominable grasp of the whole concept of logic. As well as a lack in experience in any sort of educational system whatsoever.
They can’t use logic and reasoning, because they were never taught how to think.
Considering the awesome (cough) grasp of logic, reality, morals, ethics, civility, and debating skills you have demonstrated around here, that statement means - absolutely nothing. Thanks for pointing out how willfully ignorant religiously insane idiots like you are once more!
When confronted with facts (such as the constant physical, mental, and sexual abuse teachers have committed on our children) and logic (break a law, suffer the consequences), they devolve to filth, threats, and racism. It’s pitiful to watch grown people act like such children.
Almost as pitiful as watching religiously insane sanctimonious motherCheneying iceholes project their pederasty on others when confronted with the constant physical, mental, and sexual abuse the religious leaders that they blindly follow have committed on our children.
I also really like the way this individual whines about filth, threats, and racism. Anyone else see any of that here?
Your RoveBot Reich Wing Hate Speech Generator 2.x needs a bit more work, gang...
Tom,
I am not 'at sea all the time'... though by my becoming Catholic you may think otherwise! In fact, I am posted back to Ontario this summer.
If I said I was sorry, it is because I am... it requires no wishing on your part, except you are wishing amiss in one respect.
In spite of your statements to the contrary, it is not the official position of my Church that voting for President-elect Obama was a sin. You must know that the isolated instances of two priests saying so does not make it so. This localized lack of pastoral judgment should not be presented as the Church's official position.
Nor should the horrible acts of priest-pedophiles be presented as being officially sanctioned by my Church. If you want to argue that the silence, cover-up, and implicit collusion with respect to these shameful abuses has demonstrated a deep-seated hypocrisy within the Church, I would agree.
You must know that corruption is not the official position of the RCMP, in spite of the fact that a number of bad Mounties were operating under the blind eye of the institution's leadership. When it was discovered, it was corrected in the RCMP.
I am not objecting to your justified indignation at the moral corruption or pastoral errors within my religious community. I only ask that in presenting the facts that you do not represent as my Church's official position what is not.
Your old friend,
Paul
Hey Paul!
1. The whole 'out at sea' thing came up because, when I was working for the cruise lines, I was literally living on the ship for months at a time. I didn't know whether the Navy did that, or sent you out on assignments from a Navy dock on a regular basis. No double entendre implying your faith was a bit shaky intended...
2. I'm trying to find the article where the SC priest said that his position was officially supported by the head of his diocese (which would be a bishop, right? It's been a while since I brushed up on my catholic hierarchy lessons...), so it's a bit more than a couple of priests saying this. Also bear in mind that I am talking to some of the congregation, and they are of the opinion that this is offical church policy. So, even if it's not official church policy, there are quite a few who think it is.
3. I'm a bit confused with the whole 'official position' of the church on this. I have seen a copy of a 1960's document, that the current pope took pains to remind everyone was still in effect, in 2001. This document lays out the details of excommunicating those who say anything about priests abusing congregants, or report any such (illegal) abuses to the authorities. You could read this as well to get a flavor for what I'm talking about here.
It is not my position that the vast majority of those in the catholic faith agree with these policies. It is my position, however, that the officials of the church have not done anything to correct the innacuracies with regards to their official stand on this activity. And, it is also my position that, even if this was not the official policy of the church (and then you'd have to explain that official church policy paper from the 1960's I linked to in this comment), it seems that Ratzinger was officially involved in helping the church hide these abuses from the authorities. Which would be why I'm claiming it's church policy. Perhaps I should have categorized it as 'unofficial' official church policy or 'do catholics have any idea that this is what they're enabling?'. My apologies for the inconvenience...
Oh - and a special thanks, Paul, for showing the rest of the internets that there are some people of faith who haven't gone completely around the bend, and accuse their fellow non-faith-filled human beings of being commie pinko fag junkies just because they don't believe in the same (or any, for that matter) Invisible Sky Fairy as you do.
Tom,
1. I lead the team out here. They go to sea with every ship... I don't get to go. I sailed enough with out mutual friend Jim B when we came out here after our first year at U of W, to know that I prefer dry land.
2. I read most (zzzzz) of the 1960s document that you linked to in your previous post. I have read a lot of Instructions from the Holy See, and this document does not scan very well as being cut from the same cloth. It is poorly written, is full of typos, spelling and grammatical errors, it has numerous [bracketed words] and other lacunae which leave one with the distinct impression that this supposed 'Instruction' is not at all what it claims to be.
3. Nevertheless, for the sake of the argument, let's assume it is a bone fide Instruction from the Holy See... The main point of this 'Instruction' is to discipline a priest who has acted or spoken improperly to someone who has just confessed to him. That is the main point. As a minor sub-point in this 'Instruction', there is caution to be exercised on the part of the Bishop when one of his priests is denounced. The priest is being denounced by a person who accuses the priest of passing them a note through the confessional screen, or of saying something improper to them during confession, or immediately after. In those instances the Bishop must take reasonable measures to ensure that that person is telling the truth. During the investigation that person, as well as others involved, are expected to show good faith in the disciplinary process and not go about town spreading details about the accusation.
4. Again, supposing it is what it claims to be, would the process outlined in this 'Instruction' be open to abuse by a Bishop wanting to improperly protect a priest? Yes, and even if this 'Instruction' proves to be a forgery, it is still true that this is what the fuss is all about today. People trusted the Bishop to do the right thing, but justice was not done.
5. Again, remaining with the [probably erroneous] supposition that the Holy See actually sent out such a poorly written, error-plagued document, it is clearly an old document (1960), dating from before the Second Vatican Council in 1964, and therefore would no longer be in force. This is clear from the fact that those who have rightly gone to the authorities when the disciplinary process in the Church failed them, were NOT excommunicated. That point should not be missed, since that is the objection that is being raised from this document. Rather than being excommunicated, they have received numerous apologies and settlements from the Church that betrayed them. Recent history has shown that the objection arising from this 'Instruction' is non-existent: Not one of those who spoke up has been excommunicated for doing so.
6. I have typed enough... and I am flying home to Ontario at 6:00 am tomorrow morning. As you mentioned in your last point, I respect your position and rather enjoy reading your commentary - and agree with it more often than you might think!
I'll be off-line for a while, so take care Tom and have a great holiday season, in whatever you decide to celebrate it... or not!
Paul
I am unable to understand this post. But well some points are useful for me.
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